The Platform Changing Referrals Forever

Bill Walker (00:04):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Aesthetic Appeal, the podcast for Aesthetic Brokers. Today we offer a completely revolutionary insight into how Doctor to Doctor patient quality care is handled from a referral level to the specialist from the general practitioner. We have the founders of Referral Lab, which is an incredibly exciting new technology in the SaaS space. And if you would, please welcome to the show Cameron Full, Dr. Michael Seda and Dr. Jason Stoner. Gentlemen, welcome.

Dr. Seda (00:45):
Thanks Bill.

Bill Walker (00:46):
Thanks for having us, Bill. Excited to be here.

Dr. Stoner (00:48):
Thank you Bill.

Bill Walker (00:48):
I'd love to hear a little bit of the background on the vision of Referral Lab, how it came about. If you could just share how the inspiration transpired for the problem that you guys aim to solve for dental professionals.

Cameron Full (01:05):
The truth is, it was actually a disagreement between Jason, Jason Stoner and myself that launched the idea. We were at his vacation home in Bozeman, Montana probably five and a half, six years ago, and we were talking about two things. We were talking about what conversion was in a specialized practice and we were also talking about who we considered a top referral. And so I know enough about math to argue about math with a gum doctor, but not enough about gums. And so I was like, what's a top referral man? And like anybody that you ask those questions to, it's hard to quantify what an A referral is or what a top referral is. And so we bantered back and forth and he sends over this spreadsheet thing and man, I said, this is what you're using. And Bill, he said the magic words and he said, this is what everybody does. And my ears rang and I've been fortunate enough to be in the online space through a couple other projects for quite some time. I said, is this really that big of a problem? And so enter in Seda, enter in our other partners, Dr. Michael Picos and Jason Souylas and all very th friends of ours. We called 'em Quick and did some R and D and we realized that this was the case. This was happening in a lot of practices and this is something that we could absolutely work to improve to figure out how to make better.

Bill Walker (02:36):
Maybe if you guys would touch on a couple of the core features, maybe what are the key features of Referral Lab that differentiate it from maybe some other referral management systems in the marketplace? Or is there anything that you guys know of that even resembles this?

Cameron Full (02:52):
The other referral management infrastructures in the space really look, they've taken the direction of the clinical side and they try to bridge that gap between the referring provider and the specialist. And what we've chosen to do was attack it from the complete opposite side, and that is the inner office management of the receipt of that referral and how well we process engage that patient slash referral as they move through our practice, not just through a business perspective, but also through the engagement that happens in our office as well as with our external referral sources, through our task management interface. So some of the key features that make this thing special is really it forces teams to look inward to see what can we do better to best manage the engagement that we have. It's such a unique focal point that is really unique to Referral Lab.

(03:50):
The core tenet is the ranking infrastructure, the ranking algorithm that we use to actually define what a top referral is because once you learn to trust the math and you leverage that math, you get to start to do pretty awesome things. It changes how you market to your referral base, it changes how you engage with the patients that are attached to those referrals. And even more importantly, it really changes how you manage your schedule. We've introduced something to the market called algorithmic scheduling, which allows for our practices that use the product to determine who should be seen at what times. It's your practice. And that's a pretty interesting thing that Referral lab can do. Last but not least, the task management infrastructure that we have is second to none. It's one of the most critical points of our infrastructure. And really what happens is it links the engagement all the way from referral to receipt all the way to production and making sure that truly it is true that no patient is left behind. So just some cool stuff that we do, Bill, that is pretty unique to our product.

Bill Walker (05:03):
So Cameron, I want to dive in a little bit deeper on something that you talked about where you're measuring success with the SaaS. This question is for Dr. Seda and then I want to follow up with a question for Dr. Stoner right after that. Dr. Seda, as far as real world application goes, would you mind maybe commenting on how you've been using Referral Lab and then the way that may have changed that you manage referrals within your own practice?

Dr. Seda (05:31):
Yes, great question, bill. So prior to integrating the platform, we did what probably 99% of referral-based businesses do. We looked at where how many patients are coming from any individual source and also how much production was produced from that referral source. They're easy metrics to measure, but what we find over time is that many times those two numbers can be very misleading. There are other metrics that we want to consider when we're evaluating the strength of a referral source. And so for example, in the software we've integrated not just how many referrals come in over a period of time from a specific referral source or how much production comes from that over a period of time, but there's other metrics such as how quickly patients may accept treatment once it's been presented to them from a specific referral source. How quickly can we get those patients into our schedule from the time they're referred to, the time we get them in and then to the time that we see them for surgery.

(06:47):
So it's not just about volume and dollars, but also how easy it is to move patients through our practice, get them the care they need with minimal resistance and roadblocks along the way. And what we found is that there are doctors that may send many patients, but their patients need a lot more education, a lot more support through the process of being referred and then actually seeing them for treatment. Whereas other referral sources are qualifying their patients much more intensively. They know the nature of their problem and what their treatment options may be before they even come to our office. And so those are the patients that we really want to target. How does that play out in day-to-day practice situations? I'll give you an example. After we're collecting data and entering it in real time, over time we've compiled a pretty extensive database of metrics on various referral partners.

(07:52):
There's a proprietary algorithm that will go through weight, the different metrics pertaining to each referral source and rank these referral sources according to this proprietary algorithm. And so then we have a ranking system, a ranking system that's much more intensive, a lot more inclusive of different metrics other than the basic numbers that we typically will evaluate. And we have a ranking system that we can then use harness and take advantage of to make good decisions on a daily basis. So for example, all practices regardless of how tight their ship is run, will run into the problem of cancellations. This is a daily ongoing thing regardless of what type of practice you have, whether it's a dental practice, a specialty practice, a medical spa, cardiology practice, whatever it is, we have cancellations. And so we really try to fill those spots as quickly as we can throughout the week as we go through because time is of the essence. We want to stay productive, get the patients that need care, the care that they need. And so previously the most rudimentary way of filling that spot would be compiling a list of patients that have agreed to come in earlier. If we had a spot that opened up and we create this database of patients, again, very rudimentary, when cancellation occurs, the team will start to just start at the top of the list and work their way down the list hoping that someone will take the spot.

Bill Walker (09:39):
But that might not be the patient that needs the care the most.

Dr. Seda (09:43):
Exactly. And so that's where ranking these patients, not just by where they're coming from but by what type of procedure they need, the level of emergence related to the care that they need, et cetera. We can create a compile, a more sophisticated list of patients that are all scheduled for consultation. We can then arrange them by the type of procedure that they need or have been referred for, who the referring partner is that referred them. Is it a more sophisticated referral partner that educates their patients and we can move the patients through quickly or not. And so we can start to call patients in a much more sophisticated and targeted way so that we're filling the schedule of patients that need care that are easier to work with and working with referral doctors that we want to prioritize. It's a great example.

Bill Walker (10:39):
So Dr. Seda, you bring up an interesting point of talking about the education that goes into patients who have a really complex case that they might be nervous about or they feel like it's going to be painful and they really need that care for a lot of very serious reasons. When you're seeing a periodontist, that's apparent to me. I want to ask Dr. Stoner about that. Dr. Stoner, when you think of these patients that need the extra attention that a specialist is going to provide, and you talk about collaborating with referral doctors, what benefits have you seen in your relationships with the referring dentists since you started implementing referral lab? And then how has your team seen any kind of feedback improvement for themselves with regards to how you take the approach to handling cases and staying productive? Because it's really hard. I mean, I'm talking to two of probably the most sophisticated and advanced periodontists in the country to be completely candid and it's hard to get in to see you guys, I mean want to see you and it's understandable. So maybe talk through that because it is, yes, it's good use of your time, but there's not as many people out there in the universe that can do what you do for patients. So I'd like to hear about that please.

Dr. Stoner (12:07):
Yes, I'd be happy to. So one of the key features that I really enjoy about it is with my partner doctors who are younger in the process and newer to private practice, it's provided an opportunity for them to really learn the referral patterns of their dentists that they work with and then has opened doors for the opportunity to develop those referring doctors and themselves to a higher level of qualification of each doctor and patient. What that means is basically the preparation of the patient by the referring doctor to be seen by a specialist and by our associate doctors, they and partner doctors is high level and such to the point where we want to get to the point we feel that the highest level of qualification is where a patient comes in and I sit down with them and I say, I had like to talk about what Dr. Smith sent you for.

(13:31):
And they say, I've already talked to Dr. Smith, he told me everything you're going to do. I just need to know how much it's going to cost and when can I schedule. And that's a super qualified doctor who sent a super qualified patient. One of my favorite things to do is go to dinner and go through some cases with a referring dentist and we bring some other potential referring dentists. So they're either friends of theirs or friends of ours that are just learning the referral process and they see how easy and fun it is by sitting down and talking through the case and they say, that's what I want to do and that's the relationship I want to have. And so we use referral lab to help score that and help 'em achieve the opportunity for success and our teams become a big part of that.

(14:29):
One of the features I like about Referral Lab as well that we use in those cases are the treatment team for case acceptance on certain case types. So we can really narrow down who this doctor with this assistant, with this treatment coordinator gets the best case acceptance on gingival grafting, let's say. And so we can help a dentist who's really learning more about referring for gingival grafting by putting them with that team and developing their skills and results and rewards to the patient by employing that team with them and using Referral Lab to do so. So it strengthens relationships by saying, you sit down and you say, what's your goal? What would you like to do? I'd like to do learn more about this. And so we put them with a team that gives them the best chance of success and gives them the opportunity and time and support to be able to make those cases go through and execute them.

Bill Walker (15:40):
I heard something that was interesting, I want to ask this for both you and Dr. Seda, right there where it sounded as if it helps improve communication possibly internally with a hygienist and the associate doctor for specific types of cases. It allows you to track core competencies for those cases somehow?

Dr. Stoner (16:03):
Correct. So we'll take the example of All on 4. If we have a young dentist who wants to start learning about All on 4 and employ that opportunity into their office and do more of those cases, then they send over a few patients and we put them with the All on 4 team. And that's the team that I mentioned earlier, the doctor, the assistant, and the treatment coordinator that gets the best case acceptance on those cases and they're evaluated by consultation and then that team meets with the team of the doctor, whether it's a lunch and learn or a dinner or whatever it is and whatever method, and they start developing a program that they use to institute a consistent protocol for these cases. It provides a lot of structure and it provides a lot of support to the referring dentists so that they grow significantly in a very short time to be able to find these cases, how to refer the cases, how to communicate between the offices, between the staff and the doctors, how to execute the treatment and then follow up afterwards. So that's where I think it's super beneficial.

Bill Walker (17:35):
Cameron, where do you see crossover capabilities here with Referral Lab?

Cameron Full (17:41):
Yeah, we were fortunate enough to be referred into an interventional vascular radiology group in Dallas a number of years ago. We were introduced to them pretty early into the scaling of their locations. They've since now introduced a call center which is centralized around our product. And to be honest with you, it reacts the same way in the interventional vascular radiology space as it does the specialized dental space. And so Bill, to be honest with you, it's a limitation of bandwidth at the moment. That's the only thing that's slowing us down from finding those other particular spaces that match like IV and specialized dentistry. But it's just really finding these engagements where that process is, I'm not going to say poorly managed, but the systems that are provided by the EMR are or dental practice management software, they're just not equipped to manage that engagement the way that we do it to make it as efficient as Dr. Stoner and Seda have acknowledged.

Bill Walker (18:56):
Dr. Seda, I'm curious your thoughts. You've gone through the process of building this out. You've gone through the process of implementing it in your own practice, and for those of you who don't know, Dr. Stoner is a very well-known periodontist in Ohio with multiple locations, and Dr. Seda is a very prominent dentist periodontist in Marin County just north of San Francisco. So with that being said, what advice would you give maybe other dental professionals that are considering implementing some sort of process or a management referral management system, maybe some pearls, lessons learned on this stuff and why this could be a really good fit?

Dr. Seda (19:52):
So great question, Bill. We have a lot of people ask us where do we even start? And I think changing the approach to your business to go from one where you're not trusting your gut as often, but rather learning to use math and numbers to drive a decision making process, I think one of the biggest shifts one can make and approaching their business, and we're in the business of helping people. That's the neat thing about what we do, helping people improve their oral health, their systemic health, their mental health, and it's a gift and a wonderful opportunity to do that. It is a business, and so if we're using the right information to help us guide our decision-making, it can be a very powerful thing. So the first bit of advice I'd give is if you're not using math and metrics, you're not measuring metrics to help make decisions in your business, I'd start there.

(20:56):
Whether it's with an automated software such as a platform like Referral Lab, which really automates it, makes it very user-friendly. Data entry and extraction is very easy. That's one way of doing it. If that's a bit of a stretch for you and your business for whatever reason, even using rudimentary data bases and spreadsheets to try to start gathering data, analyzing that data and then making decisions on it, it can really change your approach. It saves you time so that you're focusing your energy towards the people and the things that matter rather than spinning your wheels and not seeing results.

Dr. Stoner (21:39):
Just to add to that, it's geared to really focus your work to extreme efficiency. Your front desk knows where they know exactly how to take a new patient and where to put them on the schedule. Your treatment coordinator knows all the data that's critical about the referring dentist and how to communicate with them to get success with the patient. The money that you spend on your office manager putting together an Excel spreadsheet for 10 hours every week, every month that is 30 days old, the data is 30 days old, is what it costs to have referral lab in your office and have it in real time, real time data. So these are the things I think that I would say most to people considering bringing on a program like this. And it's one of the things we always are concerned about is we don't want patients to fall through the cracks between so many offices, whether they're within your own offices, like we have five offices. It makes communication very centralized or it's going to between offices interoffice, between referring Dentists and yours. So these are the primary benefits from it, I feel. And that should be explored because there are things that we all do, we just do them in an antiquated way on paper, and this is a more effective real time way of achieving that.

Bill Walker (23:27):
I want to comment on this for a moment, Dr. Stoner, because I want to reflect back on a time when you talk about real time. I can remember being with you at your office and you were walking out the door and you looked at your phone and I asked you what you were doing and you said, I'm measuring how we did today. So I think that maybe talk about that for a minute really quick. One of you, because I found that to be very fascinating that I'm talking to a doctor who had multiple locations and he's looking at his phone and doing a snapshot analysis very, very efficiently.

Dr. Stoner (24:13):
Yeah. So at 6:01 PM every day we get a report that Cameron put together that's amazing. And it talks about how many referrals you received, what your case acceptance was, what the average case value was, and a number of other critical items that really help you decide how well you did and how well your team did for the day. And so I don't have to spend an hour at the end of the day looking through everything to determine how many people said yes. I don't have to go through the schedule and mark 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or anything. I don't have to add up what we proposed in treatment and how much was accepted. It's all there and I know it's 6:01, I'm going to get that report. And not only that, but it goes to my office manager and my other partner doctors as well. So we all get a firm grip on how we're doing and how the day went. It's an immense saver of time.

Bill Walker (25:20):
I want to go around the horn, final words and thoughts, and I'm going to go from Cameron, Dr. Seda and Dr. Stoner, final words and thoughts for our listeners out there when it comes to Referral Lab, when it comes to improving patient care, improving the relationship between a specialist and the generalist who are experts in their field in respective regards and where you think the next next is going to be, Cameron.

Cameron Full (25:50):
Well first of all, thanks so much for having us. It's been great getting to know you this last couple years and when you asked me to come on and the guys, it was like, it's such a natural fit as you pivot a little bit your own model, and so happy to be here and engage with you. My experience obviously is all in operations. And the reality is when you put together a product and a solution like this, and what it does in turn is it allows for guys like Michael and Jason to use their hands more. We want Jason Stoner and Michael Seda engaging with the highest quality of referrals performing surgery as much as humanly possible because that's what the patients need. And these guys' time is limited.

(26:40):
And so whether it's a product like referral that speeds up that process for doctors or teams, or if you're uncomfortable with a system like that and you need to get started from something, spreadsheets can start this process for you. We are a Ferrari in the space. And the bottom line is that in order for you to get to where you want to get to as a specialist, you've got to like what Michael said, you've got to start somewhere and you need to start to take control over the inner office management and how we process referrals and how effective we are at processing those into treatment. And so Referral lab is an incredible solution that brings a lot of that stuff together. But around the horn, last comments are, if you're not there yet, start there and get your feet wet. Start tracking where they're coming from. Start tracking how productive we are at converting treatment. Start tracking, hey, just because John Smith sent me 75 patients, does that really mean that they're the best referring provider for my practice?

Bill Walker (27:52):
Dr. Seda?

Dr. Seda (27:54):
Great. I'll just add to what these gentlemen have just said. For us, Referral Lab has really become the hub of the practice. It's where we as the providers, as the doctors interface with the patients where they're coming from, the referral practices that are trusting us with the care of their patients and then also our team, our team and our practice and how they're engaging the patients, automating follow up on patients that don't accept treatment and automating a lot of the tasks that before would require someone to be very organized and keep track of what they need to do to move towards helping patients get the care they need. A lot of that is now automated, so it's acting, the software is as a hub between referring practices myself as the doctor and my team. It helps us focus our team meetings through the reports that the software can generate.

(28:58):
So instead of just throwing darts at the wall and hoping they stick, we're using the metrics and the information that the software provides to drive the conversations that we have as a practice helps dictate the kind of conversations we're having with our referring partners and with our patients. I think it's a comprehensive basket of things. It's very powerful. It's fun to use. That's the other thing is I'm seeing a lot of teams comment on how fun it is. It's making dentistry fun for not just the doctor but the team. They can follow and track their successes. And we try to set metrics and goals for each team member waving a carrot in front of them that's attainable. And we find that when people reach their goals, it's motivating for them to keep moving, keep pushing forward and challenging themselves. So it's a lot of fun. It's been a great pleasure of mine working and collaborating with these gentlemen, and I think it's something that many people would benefit from.

Bill Walker (30:07):
And Dr. Stoner?

Dr. Stoner (30:10):
Yes. I think in wrapping this up, I would say you need to track to grow and you need to track to lead your team for efficiency and for success. You need to develop relationships in the short time we have when we're not seeing patients. And that time has to be very effective and efficiently used. And this program allows for you to, it designates for you where you should spend your time. You need to have a common central communication center for the benefit of your team. You're referring dentists and most importantly, your patients because they deserve that. And this is the safety net that doesn't let anything fall through. And I think one of the best things is that it continues to evolve into something even more impactful that betters your quality of life and all of those around you. So this has been its effect on me and where it's going and how quickly it's evolving to be all encompassing to achieve all of these goals in our offices. I don't see how you could get to where you want to go without a program like this in this day and age. So thank you Bill

Bill Walker (31:54):
Three, incredibly intelligent and highly respected thought leaders in the dental space. You heard it from Cameron Full, Dr. Michael Seda, Dr. Jason Stoner. Referral Lab, look into it. It's something to be keeping your eyes on. That's all for Aesthetic Brokers today on the Aesthetic Appeal Podcast. Continue to tune in and listen for thoughtful insights like these types of episodes in the future, and we look forward to hosting you on the next event.